tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25709815.post5927453283233098752..comments2008-12-15T13:53:20.188-08:00MaryHhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06187208086221514973noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25709815.post-12687922471506483672008-12-15T13:53:00.000-08:002008-12-15T13:53:00.000-08:00Good quote, ts. <BR/><BR/>Mary, when I mentioned the seduction of suffering, I wasn't talking about the openly vengeful kind, but rather, an almost masochistic kind that is tied to being virtuous. I think your words above (<I>It was almost to the point that they seemed to look forward to it. It's like, "oh goody! Here comes more suffering."</I>) brought this to mind.<BR/><BR/>Now I know you didn't mean it that way; but I thought, with all the talk about the blessings of suffering, it would be good to recognize the potential for this imbalance. There's a lot written about Christianity being masochistic and I find it to be mostly imbalanced and myopic. Certainly the tendency to glorify suffering goes beyond any one belief system. <BR/><BR/>I do prefer the stations of Pope John Paul II mainly for the fifteenth.Richardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02644467794286481670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25709815.post-45210698689128555392008-12-14T15:22:00.000-08:002008-12-14T15:22:00.000-08:00Thanks for the link, TS. Although I had missed it, I hadn't missed your tagging of me for that meme, which I have finally fulfilled.Fredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01262662173303042998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25709815.post-52921864819494896002008-12-14T10:53:00.000-08:002008-12-14T10:53:00.000-08:00Thanks Mary, that analogy to childbirth is a very good one, and especially apt in this Christmas season. Thanks Fred also, hope you saw the link on my blog to "People, Look East". There's a link to a choir singing it.<BR/><BR/>One quote I liked, author unknown, moved me greatly ten years ago when I was experiencing the grace of re-conversion (a continuous process!):<BR/><BR/><I>"I do not understand suffering - but I know it is real. But a God who is in any way responsible for this terror of our lives, such a God must be terrible, a Molech consuming the children we love in contempt for any individual's striving and selfhood. But that is not the God revealed in the history of Israel and in the life of Jesus of Nazareth, a man whose life is written to echo the history of his people. Our God shows that he is with us - Emmanuel - in the slime of life, in the pain of life, in the joys of life, and in our death. I still do not know why people should die meaningless deaths, but because God is with us, he can look me in the face and I will not turn away in disgust. This story is so powerful that its symbols grip me absolutely. If all the details are wrong or ahistorical, the story itself remains true. Perhaps it is a dream, although I think not, but the story of Christmas is that life has meaning, humanity is worthwhile, and ultimately 'all will be well, and all will be well, and all things will be well'". </I>tshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17118362963139092279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25709815.post-18189509658080439582008-12-14T08:20:00.000-08:002008-12-14T08:20:00.000-08:00Well yes, suffering only brings life through virtue and grace. There's always the possibility that the "gift" of suffering is wasted through vice. Most of us suffer badly most of the time. I remember a story of two college students that were murdered. At the trial, the mother's of the victims addressed the killer. One mother miraculously said that she forgave the man and assured him that her son was now his (the killer's) best friend because he would be praying for him in heaven. The other mother, said, "If you want forgiveness, ask the other mother. I have none to give you." The fist mother's suffering was turned into life by the power of the Holy Spirit.MaryHhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06187208086221514973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25709815.post-66861352601695070932008-12-14T02:10:00.000-08:002008-12-14T02:10:00.000-08:00<I>All the meanness and agony without end, I sitting, look out upon,<BR/>See, hear, and am silent.<BR/>--Walt Whitman</I><BR/><BR/>Whitman aside, I also appreciate your words, Mary, of transformation from suffering to life. In the same brea(d)th, however, there's always seduction-- guilt, opiates, whatever.Richardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02644467794286481670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25709815.post-22312640791306973472008-12-13T08:14:00.000-08:002008-12-13T08:14:00.000-08:00"she has received from the hand of the Lord double punishment" - um, yeah, I flinched a bit at hearing this myself.<BR/><BR/>I like what Mary says that, "the prize that can be found in suffering is life." I'm reminded a bit of the old prayer from the sacrament of Confession: <BR/><BR/><I>May the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the merits of the Blessed Virgin and of all the saints, as well as whatever good you do and whatever evil you endure be cause for the remission of sin, an increase of grace, and attainment to everlasting life.</I>Fredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01262662173303042998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25709815.post-58006810015297018692008-12-12T21:24:00.000-08:002008-12-12T21:24:00.000-08:00Thank you, Tom. This is a very nice post. I feel so distant from the saints who saw clearly the grace to be found in suffering. It was almost to the point that they seemed to look forward to it. It's like, "oh goody! Here comes more suffering." They knew that within the suffering there was a great prize to be found. The knowledge of that prize took away the fear of the pain. The only thing I have to compare it to is when I gave birth to my children. Yes, there was pain, but no fear or aversion to the pain. It was worth it if it meant giving life to my child. The prize that can be found in suffering is life.MaryHhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06187208086221514973noreply@blogger.com